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ONE NATION - UNDER ????
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Templar



Joined: 17 Oct 1999
Posts: 592
Location: the planet of the apes

PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:11 am    Post subject: ONE NATION - UNDER ???? Reply with quote

One of these days, some lawyer is going to make a lot of money sueing to get the government to stop recognizing religious holidays: Christmas, Hannukah, Thanksgiving, Halloween, and Easter. And of course, since honoring certain political figures against whom one might be opposed (like George Washington, Abe Lincoln and Martin Luther King, Jr.) also deprive givernment workers of the right to work on holidays devoted to them, we need to get rid of those holidays, too. Obviously, recognizing those individuals means that the Federal government is elevating those men's particular political views over those who disagree with them -- elevating one particular political view over another should be as bad as elevating one particular religion over another. For that matter, let's get rid of Independence Day, since not everybody in the colonies supported the revolution, and it could be interpreted as xenophobic immigrant-bashing towards British immigrants. And then, there's Sunday -- of course, the government can't shut down on Sunday either, because that means the government is recognizing a holy day, which is a clear violation of the Constitution. I should have gotten a law degree: I could make a fortune with this sh*t!
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Ungodly



Joined: 19 Sep 2001
Posts: 197
Location: San Antonio, TX

PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:32 pm    Post subject: ONE NATION - UNDER ???? Reply with quote

Well I havn't been here in a while and it pains me to see this topic my first time back.

I would first like all these people who think that just because the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional because it says "one nation, under god" should remember that you are in America and that is just part of the scheme of things. If you moved to another country and decided to be naturalized you would have to recite certain pledges to that said country. It is the same everywhere. Just because ours says "Under God" makes us no different.

Second, I would like to see all of these people go to all veterans from wars of past and soldiers at war for us right now and tell them how they feel about a stupid line in a pledge and see what kind of reaction they get. Also tell these people that you are fighting for nothing and I don't appreciate you giving up your life so that I am FREE to call my country's POA unconstitutional. I'm sure alot of these people even have family members that have died in past wars fighting for our right to freedom and our right to say what we want.

There is seperation between church and state. If you don't want to say it, you don't have to. It's not like they hold a gun to your head and make you say it. I wonder if these people realize how stupid they have made themselves look in the eyes of other americans. This makes me ashamed to be one. Other countries kill thier citizens for things just like this.

I am an athiest but I am also an American and very patriotic. "Under God" has nothing to do with my day to day life but my commitment and honor to my country, my homeland and my family is worth more than any 3 letter word because the commitment and honor to me from my country remains the same. They give thier life to allow me to be free and to raise my family how I see fit. It is more than just a word.

In parting, if you don't like the words, don't say it.

If you don't like the country,, get the F**K out!! I'll lose no sleep with you gone.
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rockin500



Joined: 18 Jan 2001
Posts: 739
Location: Chicago, IL, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:14 pm    Post subject: ONE NATION - UNDER ???? Reply with quote

just an aside on this. here in wisconsin, illinois and indiana, the pledge IS constitutional as ruled by the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals in 1992. As long as people arent forced to say it (which had already been decided by Supreme court a long time ago) the pledge is alright.

I am an agnostic and I think this decision blows. Its going to be overturned regardless of if its by the full 9th Circuit or the Supreme Court (who is pretty conservative).

Trust california to screw things up. [img]images/smiles/icon_sad.gif[/img]
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Mijarra



Joined: 28 Nov 2000
Posts: 1564
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2002 7:59 pm    Post subject: ONE NATION - UNDER ???? Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Subtraction:
So if the majority of people want slaves, then hell let's do it!!!

They did do it. The crusade to abolish slavery only was effective once the majority agreed with it. It's wasn't right, but until the majority said so it didn't change.

and too bad the government isn't really run this way, the minority is what runs it. The minority of people that are rich and can control the government the way they want it. Oil companies do it all the freaking time, they manipulate the government by giving poloticians money.

That's called Capitalism. It works very nicely. As far as the the special interest groups influencing politicians, sure it happens, but nobody said our system is perfect.

And you know what, we do appoint a council that decides what is right and wrong for us, it's called the congress. They are the ones that pass the laws.

Actually, we don't "appoint" them, we elect them. "Appoint" implies that there is a central figure hand picking these officials. People vote for the candidate that best represents their point of view. The candidate that gets elected is the one who the majority votes for. Thus, Congress does not represent everyones views, only the majority in any specific instance.


And as soon as those people from England came over they told everyone else how to practice. Do you really think that they came over here so that they could be free and let others do the same. The answer is no, they came over here so they could do what they wanted to do and in turn they forced themselves on the Native Americans, doing the same exact thing that was done to them.


That's exactly why they came here, to be free, and that's why people from countries like Cuba and Mexico continue to risk their lives to get here every day. It's a tragedy, what happend to the native americans, but I'm unsure how you are implying it relates to the debate at hand. What happened to the native americans was hardly the same as what was happening in England. One was outright annihilation due to ignorance and the other was a rigid class-structured monarchy.

We may boast a fair democracy but we are far from it. And hey, I do love my country don't get me wrong, but we really need to open our eyes and see that big business runs our lives.

Once again, nobody ever said a democracy is "fair". For example, at the place where you work, say your boss decides there is a new task that needs to be done regularly. Nobody wants to do it, so say your boss says "We could assign this to the person with the least seniority, but take a vote to decide if this is the way we do it." A vote is taken, and everyone on the staff votes for the boss' proposition except the poor sap with the least seniority who is now stuck with this new task. Now, was the method of deciding this "democratic"? Yes...a vote was taken and the majority was spoken for, just like when we elect a president or any other official. Was it "fair"? Hardly! A "fair" way would be for everyone to share the task equally and contribute to the group. That's socialism. From every citizen according to his ability, to every citizen accordng to his need. Everyone does their part equally for the benefit of the whole. In an ideal world socialism is a great concept, but can you name any socialist country you would have ever wanted to live in? I didn't think so. What we are left with is a capitalistic democracy, warts and all, and it's the best system anyone has come up with yet.

Subtraction, clearly we don't see eye to eye on this, but I am glad there are people like you in this country who share your view as strongly as I share mine. As much as I am commited to my position, I think it's very important to always have people looking at things from a different angle. That is why our democracy works, I think, because people are always free to debate their opinions. That is something that surely didn't happen in jolly old England.
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Mijarra



Joined: 28 Nov 2000
Posts: 1564
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2002 8:07 pm    Post subject: ONE NATION - UNDER ???? Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Ungodly:
Second, I would like to see all of these people go to all veterans from wars of past and soldiers at war for us right now and tell them how they feel about a stupid line in a pledge and see what kind of reaction they get. Also tell these people that you are fighting for nothing and I don't appreciate you giving up your life so that I am FREE to call my country's POA unconstitutional. I'm sure alot of these people even have family members that have died in past wars fighting for our right to freedom and our right to say what we want.

If you don't like the country,, get the F**K out!! I'll lose no sleep with you gone.

Great point, and I liked your last sentences there. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

I work with disabled veterans at my job, mostly WWII era. I wonder how they would feel to know that the God that kept them alive in that foxhole 50 some years ago is now not to be spoken of in our own POA.
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Rockangel



Joined: 28 May 2000
Posts: 1367
Location: A step away from crazy

PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 12:41 am    Post subject: ONE NATION - UNDER ???? Reply with quote

Mijarra... if I wanted to have a god at all you'd get my vote. LOL!

But seriously, great posts throughout.
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JesseR72



Joined: 17 Feb 2002
Posts: 414
Location: PA

PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 8:59 am    Post subject: ONE NATION - UNDER ???? Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Tyrannorabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by The Dorf:

NP: Platypus - When Pus Comes To Shove (wait a minute, Ty Tabor is a devout Christian - maybe I should listen to something else because of his beliefs. NAAAHHH!!!)

He can't be THAT devout - he's divorced.

That's the funny thing about codified religion - you have to pick and choose what you take and leave, and doing that, the codes themselves lose their power.

Doug Pinnick has pretty much lapsed entirely - not into atheism, but he's definitely not a fan of Christianity anymore.

The Bible does allow for divorce, although the only reason for it should be for adultry. I fail to see how being divorced should lead to questioning one's Christianity. Remember, it takes two to fall in love, but only one to break up.

As for picking and choosing what people want out of the Bible, yeah, Christians do it all the time. But so do Jews with their Bible, Muslims with the Koran and Americans with the constitution! Just look at what this debate is about: not having the POA in school because "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion". But in arguing for a law AGAINST saying the POA with the "under GOD" quote, people convieniently forgot that the full sentence in the first ammendment is:"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF". To rule against saying the POA in school pretty much goes against the second part of that ammendment. From what I remember of my school daze, it was just a recital! Some days I said it, some days I didn't. Some days my hand was proudly over my heart, some days it was down around my belly button! Nobody puts a gun to these kids' heads and forces them to say it. I really think the majority of schoolkids and the majority of the population has no problem with the Pledge being the way it is, so let it be. For the few who don't like it: don't say it then, but don't make a big deal about it, geez, get a life!
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JesseR72



Joined: 17 Feb 2002
Posts: 414
Location: PA

PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 9:15 am    Post subject: ONE NATION - UNDER ???? Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Tyrannorabbit:
I find this whole debate to be over something fairly trivial - but then, like most Canadians, I've got God buried in my backyard. (okay, it's just a couple of Mormons)

Still, I wonder how America would feel if all those "God"'s used by the government were replaced by "Allah"'s. That'd be an interesting experiment...

I find the whole debate to be kinda trivial too!

There is a reason that "God" is used so much by the Government. "God" is basically non-denominational. Depending upon your persective, "God" is Allah, or Jehovah, or Buddah, or Jesus Christ. Since the POA does not say "one nation under Christ" it is not really a government endorsement of Christianity. It is not really an endorsment of ANY particular religion. At most it is just an acknowledgement of a higher power.
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Desslar



Joined: 11 Jul 2001
Posts: 776
Location: Bloomington, IN

PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 6:07 pm    Post subject: ONE NATION - UNDER ???? Reply with quote

"If you don't like the country,, get the F**K out!! I'll lose no sleep with you gone."

Well, so much for tolerance. I guess the poor and weary can just get the heck out now, huh?

"The crusade to abolish slavery only was effective once the majority agreed with it. It's wasn't right, but until the majority said so it didn't change."

So obviously the majority is not always correct and needs to be corrected on occasion.

"That's exactly why they came here, to be free, and that's why people from countries like Cuba and Mexico continue to risk their lives to get here every day."

Er, no, they come to try to make a buck mostly.

"That is why our democracy works, I think, because people are always free to debate their opinions. That is something that surely didn't happen in jolly old England."

Actually it did, just the colonists didn't have direct representation in government. England of the last couple centuries was never the Third Reich.
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