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SF to sue California for gay marriange ban
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Jim McCormick



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 467
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:11 am    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

Actually thinking in retrospect on the majoraity being right, here is another flaw in that concept. The few dictate the majoriaty, through invention of ideas, techniology, medicine, theology, politics, money, ect. The majoraity never leads, but always follows, right or wrong.
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Jim McCormick



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 467
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:16 am    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Just an average joe:
quote:
Originally posted by Jim McCormick:
Very good points Nitro. Not to mention over half of those who are married have affairs, ect, ect.

Yes Mijarra, our society is based on Judeo-Christain ideas that are two thosands years old. These people thought it was the end of the world when there was a eclipse, not to mention made sacrifices to god. So why are they not still making sacrfices to god? Because they know better through intellectual enlightinment promoted by the few. The point being many ideas of these beliefs are outdated an irrevelant, outdated. It is only because these people are brainwashed since their old enough to walk for two thousand years, that we still have these ideas predominating & dictating our society. That does not make it right, though there are some ideas that are universal in goodness. Most every major problenm in this world today invovles peoples clashing religous beliefs. Look no farther than the US supporting Isreal to see why there is such a problem as Muslim terrorisum. Sure theres the oil money factor to, but religion runs deeper.

"Just because most people believe something is right doesn't make it right." "Well thats wrong. Everyone beliving in something is EXACTLY what makes it right."- Mijarra

Hmm, I don't think so. Everyone thought the world was flat. Christainity locked up Galleo (spelling) for his invention the telescope, & the truth it revealed about our solar system & our earth revovling around the sun, not the other way around as was thought at the time. Christains in this country right now would rather supress teenagers using condoms in favor of the unrealistic notion of sexual abstinence, thus openig up millions of unwanted pregnancies, V.D. & aids. How about the people of Germany believing in Hitler? How about Russia & Stalin? No Mijarra, the majoriaty is not always right, they can be trajically wrong.

Ok, i'm finally going to weigh in on the subject. I personally see NO reason why gay and lesbian people cant marry. If they want to put themselves through the BS that is marriage, be my guest. And yes i am Christian, but i am also a firm believer in the idea of a "free" state.

Now that i've said that...i'm sick of people blaming Christianity for doing all the stupid things through out time. i.e Galileo. You know what the real reason behind all the "christian" problems though out history is? It the human factor, the fact that we do have free will...and the fact that almost everything that has influenced the church since almost the beginning is the fact that people get into a position of power and they want to keep it. YEs i am being simplistic there, but for the most part-the pursuit of power and keeping it has been the basis for all history.

Well, since i am "supposed to be working" i'll sign off now

That is very true Joe. Religion (ALL RELIGIONS) is a invention of man & just like man, is inherently flawed. The Bible was written by man as the word of god.
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Mijarra



Joined: 28 Nov 2000
Posts: 1564
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:43 pm    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by nitro4040:
Mijarra says:
"Asking "what harm does it do to ME if gay people get married" is an interesting question. If gay people get married, myself and others like me will probably not personally be effected very much. However, to only consider the personal impact of something as a basis for one's decision is very selfish. We must think about how this effects our society as a whole. I think gay marriage would be very bad for society, and that is why I oppose it. I believe it would erode the fabric of what marriage is, and marriage as an institution would be in even worse shape than it already is. "

This arguement is so wishy washy it's unbelevable. First you state it would have no effect on you personally, or any other person, but it would have a detrimental effect on society as a whole. Yet, you still give NO REASON WHATSOEVER! And, here we go again with eroding the fabric of marriage, please, ever hear of Divorce? Annullment? People living together without being married? How do these things, which occur daily, keep up the fabric of marriage?

Oh, and by the way, your man and woman marriage is so sweet...

Nearly one-third of American women (31 percent) report being physically or sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend at some point in their lives. –Commonwealth Fund survey, 1998

Yeah, I said I believe it would be bad. Believe. It is my belief. I don't need to back it up with facts, because it is a belief, an opinion, a view. Is the point of view that some things are right and some are wrong reserved only for liberals? Just like your belief is that it's right, mine it that it's wrong. How is one side more "wishy washy" than the other? I don't hear an overwhelming array of facts from the liberal side either. All I hear is "who would it hurt?", and "it's discrimination", both of which are based on one's perspective, or belief.

And I agree that marriage is a freakin sham these days. I am not pretending that it is looked on as sacred my most people anymore. You are right, the divorce rate is sky high, people cheat, people treat their spouses like dirt. It's a mess, I'm not blind. I just don't think just because it's fukked up we should fuk it up even further.
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Jim McCormick



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 467
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:01 am    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

Ok, here is the facts plain & simple. When government or government fueled by religion dictates your personal choice of a marriage partner, by punishment of law, then thats is wrong. It opens up the flood gates for multitude of other personal choices being eliminated. Mijarra, how would you like the goverment to force you by law to never listen to heavy metal again, because somebody decide it promoted bad values to young America. You know, they tried something simillar in the 80's. When you let government into peoples personal rights of choice your asking for big trouble.

I know I said I was not going to bring the subject up about Janet Jackson anymore, but whats going on right now with that is pertinent here as an example. The forces that be now, the FCC, is considering not only censoring public television more, but pay channels as well! What's next? Movies, books, magazines...Heavy Metal?! You get the drift of what I'm saying here? Whether your conservitave, moderate, or liberal, government censorship/prohibition of what we choose to do with our personal lives is wrong & could lead to many bad things down the line. It goes against everything that this country was established on. Now is the time to say no to the governments interference of our personal choices, or we'll watch them dwindle away, one by one. It is just not a question whether gays should be allowed to get married, it's a question of personal freedoms & who will decide them for you, yourself or the government?
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nitro4040



Joined: 14 Jan 1999
Posts: 1926

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:13 pm    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

Well said Jim.

Mijarra, nothing against your beliefs. Their yours, thats fine, but, listen to yourself. You don't like me shooting down your beliefs but then you want to impose your beliefs on me. That is what is not right. Also, just because you believe something, doesn't mean it will happen. And I wouldn't want to go to court with just your argument that you believe it will be bad for society. Try that sometime in front of a judge.

Whether you are for or against, you need to see that in order for us to grow as a society, all people must be treated equally. You are not going to stop homosexuality by banning gay marriage. It ain't gonna happen.

Do you know that there have been instances where a gay couple spouse has not even been allowed to be bedside when the other is dying in the hospital because they were not married or related.

If we ban gay marriage, we should ban men and women living together who are not married.
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Jake



Joined: 02 Mar 1999
Posts: 4963

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:06 pm    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

A lot of you guys seem to be willing to settle for whatever comes your way, just cause that's the way things are. I think that's bullshit.

As Nitro pointed out, it wasn't long ago that the majority thought other races should be subjugate to the whites. It wasn't long ago that women didn't have the right to vote. Maybe things are changing to fast for some people, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't change.

And as Jim pointed out, if we don't stand up against certain policies and laws then everything will be out of our control.

Come on now guys, you complain about censorship against heavy metal and the improper labels put on our group. Well the gays get the same labels too. We're all just people wanting to live without others telling us what to do with our lives.

There are bad gays. There are bad Christians too. In fact, Christians are far more dangerous to this country[and the world] than the gays, because they can look to their book and use it as propaganda to justify their crusades. The bad should be dealt with accordingly, but the good should be treated the same as everyone else.
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JesseR72



Joined: 17 Feb 2002
Posts: 414
Location: PA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:56 pm    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

Why not give up on all laws pertaining to marriage then? A person ought to be able to marry someone he/she loves, right? Be it someone of the opposite sex, someone of the same sex, someone under 18, a cousin, a sibling. Why should the Government be sticking their noses in people's private lives? [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] )

IF we don't stand up for certain laws, everything can eventually get out of control.

Nobody is talking about banning homosexuallity here. Marriage is a religious institution that predates our government. By definition it is the union of a man and a woman. Everyone keeps asking "What would it hurt to allow same-sex marriages?", well, first, how about telling me what does it hurt to not allow same-sex marriages? As I said, no one is banning, or even talking about banning homosexuality. No one is banning homosexuals from living together. How is this hurting them? This whole thing kinda reminds me of past news stories of girls trying to get into the boy scouts and/or boys trying to get into the girl scouts, it's not meant to be that way, deal with it.
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Mijarra



Joined: 28 Nov 2000
Posts: 1564
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:11 pm    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Jim McCormick:
Ok, here is the facts plain & simple. When government or government fueled by religion dictates your personal choice of a marriage partner, by punishment of law, then thats is wrong.

Jim, that is not a "fact", that is YOUR OPINION, and you're putting a spin on it that isn't the intent of what I am saying. What I am saying is that marriage is already defined as the union of a man and a woman and it should not be altered to appease a minority group. This is not about discrimination.

Nitro, I am not trying to "impose my beliefs on you". They are not "my" beliefs, they are the beliefs of millions of Americans and the basis on which our country was founded.

It seems like my convictions and beliefs are discounted in this argument, yet those of others are almost taken as fact. So I really don't see what else I can say. I believe marriage is the union of a man and woman, as do millions of other in this country. Not two men, two women, a cat and a dog, or any other combination. That's the end of it, as I see it.

If gay people are allowed to marry, it won't really hurt me or bother me much. I will just shake my head and smile the same way I do every time the liberal minority forces their agenda on the rest of the country. So, burn a flag, don't say God in school (only if you're Christian though), by all means don't display the 10 Commandments in public, and marry your gay partner if you wish. What do I care? I'll be dead in 50 years. I'm hoping this country will keep things together at least that long.
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Dillinger



Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 151
Location: Philly

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:23 pm    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

The times change. Humans evolve. Religion does not. I hereby side with evolution. No, a queer is not the same as a dog or cat getting married. Having married a female at one time and being pseudo lesbian I can assure you I know what I am talking about.
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