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The Bible vs. Homosexuality
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Tyrannorabbit



Joined: 04 Oct 2000
Posts: 3985
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:18 am    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by JosephC:
Biology and chemistry do not disprove anything that is in the Bible. For instance, various techniques for dating indicate that a particular matter is billions of years old, but that doesn't discount the theory that God may have created it 6000 years ago to look like it was already a billion years old.

This basically suggests that God is trying to con humanity. While I've never had any doubt that that's the idea behind religion, this is the first I've heard that God has an active role in it.
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JosephC



Joined: 26 Apr 2000
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:35 am    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Tyrannorabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by JosephC:
Biology and chemistry do not disprove anything that is in the Bible. For instance, various techniques for dating indicate that a particular matter is billions of years old, but that doesn't discount the theory that God may have created it 6000 years ago to look like it was already a billion years old.

This basically suggests that God is trying to con humanity. While I've never had any doubt that that's the idea behind religion, this is the first I've heard that God has an active role in it.
I don't see it that way. You are taking one paragraph and quoting it out of context. If you read the entire post, you will see that I am saying that what we know about science is not necessarily definite and it shouldn't be used to draw absolute conclusions about what may or may not be.
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Jim McCormick



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 467
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:06 am    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by JosephC:
quote:
Originally posted by Jim McCormick:
quote:
Originally posted by JosephC:
quote:
Originally posted by Jim McCormick:
Science has pretty well punched holes all through the bible & any other non-Christain religous script.

Not true. Having a degree biology and working in the chemistry field for over 10 years, I can say the Bible and science lives in harmony every day.
Really! [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] I would sure like to hear what the Bible & science have in common, other than it's descrpition of historical physical evidence found through archaeology, such as sites of towns, battles, graves, ect. Anyone that lived back then could of accurately descibed their surroundings, but that does not lend credence to their description of God's word. Maybe you know something that I don't. How does biology & chemistry prove the Bible's descriptions of a supreme being, who he is & what he stands for? It can't be scientificly proven, so there is no proof, only an ancient text written by people who thought eclipses were omens & the world was flat dark mysterious place. According to Christian doctrine there was no life before Eden, though it is scientific fact that even modren man predates Eden, not to mention life 400 million years ago. When asked how God created the world in six days & rested on the seventh, when the world is close to five billion years old, Christains counter, "How long is a day in God's time," for lack of a answer. The point is they don't know & neither do I, no one knows. Again, I believe you can't get something from nothing, someone(s) had to create it, but none of us really know who or why. For proof of that all you have to do is look at all the different religions, each one thinks it's the true religion. Then these religions can't even agree on their own doctrine, so they split up in factions, denominations, some Christian ones being Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, Lutheran, & even these donominations have sub-denominations. Why? Because it's all subjective, there is no definitive proof, other than we know someone(s) or something(s) must have created everything, but then who created them. See, know one really knows. I don't want a question answered with another question, I'd really like to know. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Biology and chemistry do not disprove anything that is in the Bible. For instance, various techniques for dating indicate that a particular matter is billions of years old, but that doesn't discount the theory that God may have created it 6000 years ago to look like it was already a billion years old.

When it comes down to it, the "science" that you accept as fact is as much a theory as anything theology may teach you.

For instance, if you would take a course in organic chemistry you would quickly be introduced to the concept of mechanisms which drive reactions. However, you would also learn of a couple of situations where certain reactions occur which is not what the theory would indicate. How reliable is this science?

-Or terminal cancer with no cure all of a sudden vanishing from a person's body against all odds. Is the knowledge of our finest doctor's flawed?
-Or a 98 pound woman flipping a 2000 pound car off of her child? Is this possible according to our science?

I make my living doing science. I have realized that science will never be fully understood. And looking at the same concept from a different viewpoint, I have learned that science should never put limitations on the possibilities or what may or may not be.

For instance, at one time the folks who studied physics thought there was nothing more to learn. Then a man named Einstein came along.

There is no question that religion is based upon faith. I'm not disputing that. But at the same time, I will dispute the idea that our "knowledge" of science makes the Bible invalid.

Joeseph, I'm not questioning that there is not some higher order of being or beings that created the universe. Science has pretty much proved cause & reacation, though that is at it's heart a simple basic idea. If anything, Science has taught us what a limited obsolete book the bible is, but I'm getting off track here. I question any group of people trying to tell me what God is & what god wants, everybody has their own ideas, but no one knows. So it offends me when they try to shove their religion down my throat, whether it be with the superficial benign smile of a bible thumper who knocks on my door to convert me or religious fanatics of all faiths that cause terrorisum, wars, & uses their political power to push their agenda through government to their percieved religious advantage. Religion is a invention of man & is inherently flawed like man. Only if & when this identity known as "God" makes a appearence in front of man, will we as a species may have the answer of what & who he/she/they are. Even if this should ever happen, we still may not know what "God" has intended for us or what "God" really is.
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Jim McCormick



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 467
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:32 am    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

-Or terminal cancer with no cure all of a sudden vanishing from a person's body against all odds. Is the knowledge of our finest doctor's flawed?
-Or a 98 pound woman flipping a 2000 pound car off of her child? Is this possible according to our science? -Joseph C.

Thought I'd address these paticular questions.

It is a known medical fact that when a person is faced a critical situation such as a woman lifting a car of her child, the body becomes supercharged with a adrenalin inabling the muscle with superhuman strength.

As far as Cancer goes, the body has it's own defense mechanisms that defend the body. When these mechanisms break down then Cancer floods the body. So it can be said that a person who magically appears Cancer free after being clinicly proven terminal, may have had their defense systems turned back on by the body, for whatever reasons. People with strong defense systems never get Cancer, so is that also a direct intervention of "God"? No, just a healthy body performing it's functions, but I will concede the point that whomever made us designed it that way, I just don't know who.
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Mijarra



Joined: 28 Nov 2000
Posts: 1564
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:40 pm    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Jake:
Your philosophy argument while not really scientific [as you said] is the thing I may fall back on for explaining to myself why I believe in a god.

On a personal level, this is what I base my faith on: I realize that philosophical thing is shaky, but it makes a lot of sense to me. I believe, through the course of things that have happened in my life, that there in an all powerful entity in the universe. Call it God, as that seems to be our modern English word for it. Now, here is where I think most religion fails: Once a person accepts the idea of an "ALL POWERFUL" God, they must, by definition, accept other things. For one thing, if God is all powerful that means ANYTHING is possible. That means people have to accept the idea that they do not and never will have all the answers, as we are surely not Gods. People have a lot of problems with this. They want to think they are right all the time. They want to think they know exactly what God is all about, and that they can explain it all. I think this is impossible with an all powerful entity. If we belive God is all powerful, we must be willing to accept the Bible could be literal, factual, and 100% true. However, if we believe God is all powerful, we must also be equally willing to accept that the Bible could be absolute bunk. I think people in general are very afraid to put a logical, philosophical, view on their religion. I think that's too bad, because I think they are missing the point.

To pidgeon hole or overly define God means, to me, to take a way the "all powerful" part. And then He's not God anymore. I feel I must be willing to accept that the universe is fully of things I can't understand. I must be willing to look for answers, but understand that I might not find them either.

I can accept Jesus, and it doesn't matter to me if he really existed, because the story of his life has inspired millions of people to lead good lives. If that is not an act of God I don't know what is. So, even if he never existed, even if the Gospels are a bunch of made up nonsense, as it could be if I accept that God is all powerful, it doesn't matter. Even if he didn't exist then, he does now. I'm just using this as an example. I think it's pretty likely that Jesus did exist, not only based on the Bible, but also on other historical documents.

I could babble on, but I think that's enough for now. I try to follow the Catholic thing, and one thing I like about it is the sense of community, but I have a lot of issue with other parts of it.
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Mijarra



Joined: 28 Nov 2000
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Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:50 pm    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by JosephC:
For instance, various techniques for dating indicate that a particular matter is billions of years old, but that doesn't discount the theory that God may have created it 6000 years ago to look like it was already a billion years old.

[/QB]

I like this. What to you think of maybe an opposite approach? For instance, God may have created the world over millions of years, but explained it the Bible in terms of thousands. Maybe because God realized that people of that time would have a hard time comprehending time on that vast of a scale. ??? If so, science and the Bible both jive.

The Bible was written in a time when people were fairly ignorant. The average 5th grader today probably has a better knowledge of most science and nature than adults did in the time of Moses or Christ. I think there has to be some accounting for that on the part of God. Maybe if the Bible were written today it would be a much more complexed book. Still, I think there are levels of it that apply to us today. We just have to look harder, because it is a fairly primitive text in many ways.
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live4metal



Joined: 12 Jul 2001
Posts: 1057
Location: El Segundo,CA.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:50 am    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

Funny how a comical thread about religion has become a debate about the most enduring question in human history,is there a GOD?
Science can't prove or disprove his existance.Enter faith,your personal freedom to believe or not believe right?
I choose to believe in GOD.There's just too much harmony to the Universe to believe all this is just a random happening.
Now how all this relates to weather or not U should bend your buddy over and ram it home I don't know.But please,use lubrication.
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Jim McCormick



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 467
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:13 am    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

"I can accept Jesus, and it doesn't matter to me if he really existed, because the story of his life has inspired millions of people to lead good lives. If that is not an act of God I don't know what is. So, even if he never existed, even if the Gospels are a bunch of made up nonsense, as it could be if I accept that God is all powerful, it doesn't matter. Even if he didn't exist then, he does now. I'm just using this as an example. I think it's pretty likely that Jesus did exist, not only based on the Bible, but also on other historical documents." - Mijarra

I tend to agree with much you said, but disagee (not completely) with the above paragraph. I may be very wrong here about your implied meaning, but from this post & others it seems to me that you place way to much credit on Christanity for showing mankind the way to goodness. If I'm wrong, I do apologise, but here is what I think on the subject.

While I agree that the story of Jesus (Moses too) has inspired millions of people to do good, that does not mean religion of any kind is the source of goodness. A man & woman can be inherently kind without organised religion or its influence. There were good people way before the time of Christans, Jews, Muslims & all the far eastren faiths such as Hinduism, Buddhism, ect. Religion has no claim to this. Now on the other hand religion has been directly & indirectly responsible for wars & deaths through history. Religion is the great divider. It dictates ones beliefs through dictating culture, society, & politics. When someones elses religous views differ, then it can become a percieved threat, people are willing to kill & be killed over that percieved threat. Now just like religion did not create good, religion did not create wars, murder, evil. We can place that blame from the start of life on earth, for man is still a animal with all the territorial instincts that come with it. Man has waged war for territory since the beginning, for food, shelter, & riches that come with territory. Religion has become part of that territory, but not a physical territory, but one of the mind. When you divide minds you divide people, when you divide people you have conflict, conflict leads to murder & war. We also have to realise that what one person or culture deems acceptable does not mean the next person or culture deems it also to be acceptable, through religious influence. So good & bad are just subjective terms relative to ones life situation. One hundred fifty years ago in this country people hanged for stealing cattle & horses, for he stole the other man's source of food & transportation, which could lead to that mans death. Today technology has made that punishment obsolete & punishment unthinkable for those crimes, for man has cars, motorcycles, public transportation, no need for the horse as a means of transportation. Man has grocery, convienent stores, resturants, fast food, he as a individual need not depend on raising his own livestock. So in many ways we can say technology is replacing religion, we need not be at the mercy of the unknown & uncontrolable as man was years ago. Religion helped man in pooling together their resources in a more primitive time, but with the advent of technology & science man has found he can depend on man as a boone or bane to his problems, & not blame everything good or bad that he didn't understand in the past on God.

Yes I believe in a higher form, but I also believe that higher form has left man up to his own device. Whether this is a test of our worth as people or a classroom experiment I don't know, maybe I never will. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
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JesseR72



Joined: 17 Feb 2002
Posts: 414
Location: PA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:00 am    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Jim McCormick:
"I can accept Jesus, and it doesn't matter to me if he really existed, because the story of his life has inspired millions of people to lead good lives. If that is not an act of God I don't know what is. So, even if he never existed, even if the Gospels are a bunch of made up nonsense, as it could be if I accept that God is all powerful, it doesn't matter. Even if he didn't exist then, he does now. I'm just using this as an example. I think it's pretty likely that Jesus did exist, not only based on the Bible, but also on other historical documents." - Mijarra

I tend to agree with much you said, but disagee (not completely) with the above paragraph. I may be very wrong here about your implied meaning, but from this post & others it seems to me that you place way to much credit on Christanity for showing mankind the way to goodness. If I'm wrong, I do apologise, but here is what I think on the subject.

While I agree that the story of Jesus (Moses too) has inspired millions of people to do good, that does not mean religion of any kind is the source of goodness. A man & woman can be inherently kind without organised religion or its influence. There were good people way before the time of Christans, Jews, Muslims & all the far eastren faiths such as Hinduism, Buddhism, ect. Religion has no claim to this. Now on the other hand religion has been directly & indirectly responsible for wars & deaths through history. Religion is the great divider. It dictates ones beliefs through dictating culture, society, & politics. When someones elses religous views differ, then it can become a percieved threat, people are willing to kill & be killed over that percieved threat. Now just like religion did not create good, religion did not create wars, murder, evil. We can place that blame from the start of life on earth, for man is still a animal with all the territorial instincts that come with it. Man has waged war for territory since the beginning, for food, shelter, & riches that come with territory. Religion has become part of that territory, but not a physical territory, but one of the mind. When you divide minds you divide people, when you divide people you have conflict, conflict leads to murder & war. We also have to realise that what one person or culture deems acceptable does not mean the next person or culture deems it also to be acceptable, through religious influence. So good & bad are just subjective terms relative to ones life situation. One hundred fifty years ago in this country people hanged for stealing cattle & horses, for he stole the other man's source of food & transportation, which could lead to that mans death. Today technology has made that punishment obsolete & punishment unthinkable for those crimes, for man has cars, motorcycles, public transportation, no need for the horse as a means of transportation. Man has grocery, convienent stores, resturants, fast food, he as a individual need not depend on raising his own livestock. So in many ways we can say technology is replacing religion, we need not be at the mercy of the unknown & uncontrolable as man was years ago. Religion helped man in pooling together their resources in a more primitive time, but with the advent of technology & science man has found he can depend on man as a boone or bane to his problems, & not blame everything good or bad that he didn't understand in the past on God.

Yes I believe in a higher form, but I also believe that higher form has left man up to his own device. Whether this is a test of our worth as people or a classroom experiment I don't know, maybe I never will. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

If you can find me a historical text that predates the oldest books of the Bible, I may buy into your notion that people were basically good before religion entered into the picture. God gave us commandments to abide by because people were generally NOT good by nature. We look at the 10 Commandements today and think many of them are obvious. Well, they were not obvious then, that's why they had to be wrtten down. Kinda like before 9/11 who woulda thought we should have to outlaw boxcutters on airplanes? The 10 Commandments don't appear in the Bible until the book of Exodus. In the Book of Genesis what do you have? Stories of Sodom and Gommorra, Tower of Babel and the world destroyed once save for Noah and his family because of the general evil of man's nature.
As for religion starting wars, if you get down to it, I think you'll see that religion was more often an excuse for war rather than a reason.
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