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Dillinger
Joined: 28 May 2003 Posts: 151 Location: Philly
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Kirk Hammett Makes Idiotic Remark |
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[quote="CollectorOfWomen"]Comparing Van Halen to Black Sabbath is like comparing shit to gold.
Tony Iommi over the course of 20 years made these excellent records:
Debut
Paranoid
Volume 4
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
Never Say Die
Heaven and Hell
Seventh Star
Eternal Idol
Tyr
While Eddie Van Halen made their great debut record, and never got that good again.[/quote]
TYPICAL IMMATURE SABBATH FAN YOU ARE!! I already know you think Sabbath is great. You already know I think they suck. Why continue ranting? I already know you have crap taste is music from a number of posts you make, including your disdain for Iron Maiden and love for Spinal Tap. So, I really don't care what you say anyways.
As to the alleged idea Sabbath is the first band of some sort, any sort..keep in mind that any original band are inventors, so anyone can be "first," including new bands! Also, I don't know how old Uriah Heep is but they had a heavy tone at times way back when.
As to whether these new bands Kirk says are irrelavant, I disagreee they are, even where their new albums don't compare to earlier works. The best works of any band are most relevant to the genre today. The entire discussion Kirk raises is retarded. He chooses to pick on a couple of metal's best ever bands, so that he can tell us they are irrelevant. Those bands are STILL relevant, even if you don't think their current releases compare to some current bands. I havent heard ALL the new bands, but the ones I have (exluding discussion of my own) are not as good in at least many parts the league of music making overall, as these bands, even though A COUPLE may also be better in parts than some of this newer stuff by these bands. I think a lot of Maiden's newer stuff is still good. Priest, I wasn't too fond of the death metal angle they seemed to start though. |
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Mijarra
Joined: 28 Nov 2000 Posts: 1564 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Kirk Hammett Makes Idiotic Remark |
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[quote="CollectorOfWomen"]Comparing Van Halen to Black Sabbath is like comparing shit to gold.
[/quote]
I'd say it's more like comparing gold to somewhat different gold. I don't mean to sound like I'm switching sides here at all, I just think EVH deserves repect in his own right. Iommi and EVH are both legends, but in their own different ways. |
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Mijarra
Joined: 28 Nov 2000 Posts: 1564 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Reading Jim's post, it seems like back in the late '60s, early '70s, maybe the term "heavy metal" was applied more liberally than it is today. Heck, even in the '80s bands like Quiet Riot and Dokken were called "metal", though today people would argue to the death that they surely were not. Still, when I think of the fathers of modern heavy metal, I surely don't think of Led Zeppelin or Jimi Hendrix. The sound I hear comes from Black Sabbath. They did share a bluesy influence, and, from today's perspective, a mind-numbingly pentatonic approach to soloing, as I guess all rock players did back then, but only Sabbath is the kind of driving monsterous force that I see in modern metal bands. Their riffs were different, their vibe was different.
Led Zep was great, but they were so diverse in their sound. They were not often very dark, and Jimmy Page's writing is very palatable to the mainstream even today. They were a great hard rock and roll band. Jimi Hendrix was a genius, but he was a blues man at heart. This can be seen in his final official release, Band of Gypsies, where he finally got to express himself the way he saw fit. There was some heaviness there I guess, but it's a lot of blues and jazz influece also. Nothing wrong with that, Jimi was one of the best players ever in any genre, but I sure don't see much of his influence in a band like old Metallica or modern Iced Earth, as I do with Sabbath. If Jimi and Jimmy were considered metal players back then, I sure don't know (not born til '72), but looking back, the differences in their playing compared to Iommi was vast.
With Sabbath, it was the riffs. I hear no band before Black Sabbath experimenting with that kind of crushing, power chord driven style. You can draw a line from from that, to early '80s Iron Maiden and Judas Priest, mid '80s thrash, early '90s death metal, and finally to modern melo-death and power metal. Sad to say, but even the mallcore bands at least have the heavy riff thing down pretty good.
So, that's why I think of Black Sabbath as the fathers of metal. No doubt there were other bands contributing to it, like Hendrix, Led Zep, the Stones, even the Beatles to some degree. They aren't really the same though. If we want to trace back influence upon influence we can go back to Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley, Charlie Christain, Wes Montgomery, and all the way to Bach and Mozart...and whoever influenced them. |
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:03 pm Post subject: Some facts... |
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1) Iron Butterfly's "Ina Gada da Vida" is an amazing metal song. 1968. The rest of the record is flower people daffy psychadelia.
2) Hendrix was great. His cover of Dylan's "All Along the Watchtower" is one of the greatest covers of all time. I call him "heavy blues." He is one of the 60s artists who did some cool metal songs, but never a metal album. Ditto for Cream and Blue Cheer, two other bands that dumbass critics sometimes say invented metal.
3) Ditto for Zeppelin. Definately NOT a metal band. Bluesy, folky, artsy. Lotsa brilliant stuff, lotsa crap too. A few metal songs, but no metal lyrics.
4) I have owned the Best of Uriah Heep, and Abominog, for 20 years. Cool records. Uriah Heep is closer to metal than Zeppelin, but if you go back and listen to the albums prior to 1980 they are not metal records.
5) Dokken "Tooth and Nail" is definately a metal record, and a great one.
6) The Black Sabbath debut is the first metal album. Period.
7) The soundtrack to "Spinal Tap," otherwise known as "Smell the Glove" or "The Black Album," has a few cool metal tunes on it, but is also not a metal record. Which I criticize them for at every opportunity.
8 ) Edward Van Halen is a legend only because of the one record he made before he could afford to drink a gallon of Vodka per day (no lie). It is time that the idiotic guitar magazines write about the pre- and post- drunkenness Van Halen, and stop worshipping his pickled ass.
9) I do not have a disdain for Iron Maiden. Both Killers and Powerslave are on my list of the top 50 metal records of all time. But, unlike the typical fan, I have the guts to say that "Dance of Death" should have been called "Dull as Hell." Everything since "Seventh Son" is junk compared to the greatness of what they were once capable of.
10) With the exception of "Machine Head," Deep Purple sucked prior to Blackmore leaving for Rainbow. The albums are junk. "Machine Head" is a metal record, and a great one. "Perfect Strangers," the comeback record after Rainbow went pop and died commercially, is very good. The rest are largely worthless, and not really metal.
11) nuclear_x has got it right about Bill Ward. He was outstanding. Go listen to the overly simplistic percussion on the Alice in Chains records, and you will know why they ran out of gas so early. Then go listen carefully to Bill Ward, and you will understand a major reason why Sabbath was so great. Bill's "Ward one: Along the Way" is an excellent album, by the way. |
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Dillinger
Joined: 28 May 2003 Posts: 151 Location: Philly
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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I can't make Sabbath fans admit the obvious, that these coincidental music icons, have different taste in music than they do. Take for example, Iommi and Ozzy making so many public remarks defending the ass that is Marilyn Manson. I believe Iommi said something imbecile to the effect of," the idea that an individual is dangerous is outtdated..," referrring to Manson's alleged oppressed condition. After all, he merely idolizes Charles Manson. What could possibly be the matter with that Ozzy and Iommi wonder. I'll side with Mustaine and Dickinson on this topic as well. Manson is a psychotic dope who plays crappy music. Next time Dickinson is talking about being into metal bands like Audioslave, and Butler and Iommi are condemning Rage Against the Machine for their "political lyrics," meanwhile praising Manson, tell the Sabs Bralalalala sent you complaining you have been deceived! |
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Mijarra
Joined: 28 Nov 2000 Posts: 1564 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Dillinger"] Manson is a psychotic dope who plays crappy music. [/quote]
Brallallaala, we agree on something! I'm slighting surprised, but well said anyway on your behalf. I never heard those remarks from Iommi and Ozzy though so I really can't comment, but if they say what you say they said, then I agree with you again, although I'm not sure that has much bearing on Black Sabbath's music. |
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Dillinger
Joined: 28 May 2003 Posts: 151 Location: Philly
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Mijarra"][quote="Dillinger"] Manson is a psychotic dope who plays crappy music. [/quote]
Brallallaala, we agree on something! I'm slighting surprised, but well said anyway on your behalf. I never heard those remarks from Iommi and Ozzy though so I really can't comment, but if they say what you say they said, then I agree with you again, although I'm not sure that has much bearing on Black Sabbath's music.[/quote]
Well, I find it odd that the band that supposedly founded metal, has interests in so many non metal, crap and nu metal type bands. If the Sabs are so concerned with artists who face first amendment violations, Marilyn Manson is not exactly the first I would sympathize with. In fact, he would be the last. There are a ton of artists who face oppression and censorship (check out my court hearing news for one of probably many examples), and they are facing it not because they think they adore Charles Manson! The fact is, the Sabs have their hearts in the wrong place. Ozzy made a big deal out of "allowing" Manson to play Ozzfest like it was some great charity to society. That's odd. I also think you'll find Ozzfest has been responsible for promoting a lot of numetal bands most people on this board hate. I don't think they have ever given the best bands the best spots there. Ozzy has been known as a "madman" for some time. I don't think I am the first to notice.
Anyways, it is an interesting topic. Anyone have any other quotes as to the influences of Black Sabbath musically? I don't generally read their quotes. I run into them by accident, so I don't have a ton to go on. |
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:23 pm Post subject: Yes, Ozzy and Sharon like money |
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Yes, Ozzy and Sharon like money. And yes, they don't like being sued for breach of contract, etc., by their record label. And yes, they are a corporation. And yes, they put dumbass mall metal bands on Ozzfest. And yes, the TV show is junk.
And yes, Ozzy Osbourne was there doing lead vocals when metal hit the world. Along with a bit of harmonica on "The Wizard." |
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