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SF to sue California for gay marriange ban
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Mijarra



Joined: 28 Nov 2000
Posts: 1564
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:44 pm    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

This whole gay marriage thing is freakin ridiculous. Once again, a minority is trying to force a change in society that the majority is against.

The mayor of SF is in contempt of the law. Nobody is above the law, and this guy is stretching it any way he sees fit. I think Ah-nold needs to start busting some heads here (legally speaking, of course).
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Jim McCormick



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 467
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:28 am    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

What [b]REAL[/b] valid point is there against gays getting married. The law? The Christians, other religious sects? Gays can't live together as a married couple & rear childern who turn out to be normal? Gays can't feel love for one another? Gays are not emotionally capable of the institution of marriage? Not one of the above has a valid point. You can't abide by the law on this point, because what is the law on this matter, but something sanctioned by Christian law makers for a predominate homophobic Christain society that fears such a marriage.

Honestly, how is two men or two women going to hurt the institution of marriage by wedlock of one another? Are hetrosexuals going to fear marriage now? No. Are hetrosexuals going to fear being thought of gay by marriage? I don't think so. Is it going to destroy homophobic hetrosexuals & religous people's concept of the sanctity of marriage between man & woman? No, but it will be a thorn in their faith. Marriage just like religion is based on faith. Actually marriage is a concept born of religion. In marriage you place your faith on your partner to love & cherish you a lifetime, not really knowing how things will end up. In religion you place your faith in a unseen idenity in hopes you'll live forever. By gays getting married they are chipping away at the faith foundation of religion & marriage, both believing in the sanctity of man & woman union. Is that basis for not allowing gays to get married. No! We're supposed to have a seperation of church & state here in America. For good reason, most people came to America early in it's birth to escape religous persecution. If this gay marriage bill gets ammended in our constitution, this will be another flaking chip off our long eroding rights in this country. It is opening a gaping hole for the Christains to dictate our rights as Americans in the future. Don't think it's possible? Better look at the Muslims. You say that can't happen here. Give a religious sect enough power like the Muslims have over government & it can happen. More people have died in the name of religion, than anything else. Think Christains are above killing one another like Muslims? They're not. Look at Northren Ireland & all the holy wars before. Give anyone that kind of power & it can happen.

All the above aside, the real point is this. Homophobic America does not want to share the institution of marriage. The gays are not asking the hetrosexuals to give up their beloved rose colored glass institution, they just want to have the same right.

Gays should be allowed marriage. They are people too. Is this not the land of the free? [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
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nitro4040



Joined: 14 Jan 1999
Posts: 1926

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:39 am    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

If you argue the sanctity of marriage you are arguing a religious point of view which should have no bearing in our government.

If you argue that marriage should only be between a man and a woman, then we have an equal rights issue.

The questons I would liked answered, by Mr. Bush, and others who oppose gay marriage:

Do you condone 2 gay people living together as a couple for 50 years without getting married?

do you condone 2 non-gay people living together for a number of years without getting married?

What is your stance on gay people adopting?

See, this is just a can of worms, which, those who oppose, really have no real legs to stand on. This is 2004. Grow up people. What harm does it do to you? Tell me that.
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nitro4040



Joined: 14 Jan 1999
Posts: 1926

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:41 am    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Mijarra:
This whole gay marriage thing is freakin ridiculous. Once again, a minority is trying to force a change in society that the majority is against.

The mayor of SF is in contempt of the law. Nobody is above the law, and this guy is stretching it any way he sees fit. I think Ah-nold needs to start busting some heads here (legally speaking, of course).

Yeah, hell, we should screw the minority opinion. It is never right, or just, or fair. I do believe that when Mr. Martin Luther King begin the civil rights movement, he was in the minority. Your arguement holds no water.

Oh, and wasn't it minority opinion that got us into Iraq? thought we needed UN approval?
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Rockangel



Joined: 28 May 2000
Posts: 1367
Location: A step away from crazy

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:29 pm    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

There are 2 things that disturb me about this situation.

One I have to agree with Mijarra. Right now it is the law and that judge broke the law. I don’t have to agree with the law, and I may even see it as a pointless law (like the law in Huntington Beach [I believe it was] that was on the books till a few years ago that only allowed certain size work tables in ones garage). But if it is a law it should be enforced. If it’s not liked one should work to change it. Especially if it is a highly public law.

Second, it disturbs me that we would allow the federal government to dictate something that has been the responsibility of each state. Not to mention the wording of this law. It becomes a separation of church and state issue. There was a time our country would not recognize and it was illegal to marry into another race. There was and are those who would argue that their “religion” promotes and encourages polygamy. If we had someone in the White House whose religion condoned one of these other “definitions” of marriage would we then be obligated to bow to those wishes?

A constitutional amendment is not only unnecessary but also potentially harmful to an area that up till now has been dictated by each state. The decision should remain with the State.
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Mijarra



Joined: 28 Nov 2000
Posts: 1564
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:15 pm    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

This is indeed a can of worms, but what the hell, here we go again. First of all, whether people realize or not, the laws, mores, and general values we have in this country are based on Judeo-Christian principles. So it is not a coincidence that the bible and the law...and the majority opinion...all agree on this subject. So agruing that we should change this law, or any law, just because a minority group wants it is like saying that all the foundations that we built our society on really don't mean that much. If there was a minority group who believed in human sacrifice, should that be allowed too? There have been cultures in history that believed human sacrifice was an essential part of existance. We are not that culture, in our culture human sacrifice is a no no, so of course it would not be legal. Same thing with gay marriage. Just because one group believes in it doesn't mean we upset the whole turnip cart to please them.

Asking "what harm does it do to ME if gay people get married" is an interesting question. If gay people get married, myself and others like me will probably not personally be effected very much. However, to only consider the personal impact of something as a basis for one's decision is very selfish. We must think about how this effects our society as a whole. I think gay marriage would be very bad for society, and that is why I oppose it. I believe it would erode the fabric of what marriage is, and marriage as an institution would be in even worse shape than it already is.

And just a note...this is a democracy. It doesn't matter who is right, it matters who there is more of. EVERYONE thinks they are right. Nobody ever believes in something and thinks they are wrong!The people who are against gay marriage think they are every bit as righteous as those for it, although I know it will shock you liberals to hear this. I heard in a movie the other day the line "Just because most people believe something is right doesn't make it right." Well, that's wrong. Everyone believing in something is EXACTLY what makes it right. Where do you think we get our values from? The majority agrees that murder is wrong, so it's illegal. The majority believes belching in public is rude, so it is frowned upon. The majority believes you shouldn't take other people's stuff, so stealing is illegal. If the majority believed gay marriage was hunkey dorey we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Think about it.
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nitro4040



Joined: 14 Jan 1999
Posts: 1926

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:56 pm    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

First,
Judges don't break laws. They either rule according to law, or set precedent and rule against an existing law. It is done all the time. Maybe you heard of a case called Roe v. Wade? Or perhaps Brown v. Board of Education?

Mijarra says:
"Asking "what harm does it do to ME if gay people get married" is an interesting question. If gay people get married, myself and others like me will probably not personally be effected very much. However, to only consider the personal impact of something as a basis for one's decision is very selfish. We must think about how this effects our society as a whole. I think gay marriage would be very bad for society, and that is why I oppose it. I believe it would erode the fabric of what marriage is, and marriage as an institution would be in even worse shape than it already is. "

This arguement is so wishy washy it's unbelevable. First you state it would have no effect on you personally, or any other person, but it would have a detrimental effect on society as a whole. Yet, you still give NO REASON WHATSOEVER! And, here we go again with eroding the fabric of marriage, please, ever hear of Divorce? Annullment? People living together without being married? How do these things, which occur daily, keep up the fabric of marriage?

Oh, and by the way, your man and woman marriage is so sweet...

Nearly one-third of American women (31 percent) report being physically or sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend at some point in their lives. –Commonwealth Fund survey, 1998
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Jim McCormick



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 467
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:53 am    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

Very good points Nitro. Not to mention over half of those who are married have affairs, ect, ect.

Yes Mijarra, our society is based on Judeo-Christain ideas that are two thosands years old. These people thought it was the end of the world when there was a eclipse, not to mention made sacrifices to god. So why are they not still making sacrfices to god? Because they know better through intellectual enlightinment promoted by the few. The point being many ideas of these beliefs are outdated and irrevelant. It is only because these people are brainwashed since their old enough to walk for two thousand years, that we still have these ideas predominating & dictating our society. That does not make it right, though there are some ideas that are universal in goodness. Most every major problenm in this world today invovles peoples clashing religous beliefs. Look no farther than the US supporting Isreal to see why there is such a problem as Muslim terrorisum. Sure theres the oil money factor to, but religion runs deeper.

"Just because most people believe something is right doesn't make it right." "Well thats wrong. Everyone beliving in something is EXACTLY what makes it right."- Mijarra

Hmm, I don't think so. Everyone thought the world was flat. Christainity locked up Galleo (spelling) for his invention the telescope, & the truth it revealed about our solar system & our earth revovling around the sun, not the other way around as was thought at the time. Christains in this country right now would rather supress teenagers using condoms in favor of the unrealistic notion of sexual abstinence, thus openig up millions of unwanted pregnancies, V.D. & aids. How about the people of Germany believing in Hitler? How about Russia & Stalin? No Mijarra, the majoriaty is not always right, they can be trajically wrong.
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Just an average joe



Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 148
Location: Grand Rapids Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:07 am    Post subject: SF to sue California for gay marriange ban Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Jim McCormick:
Very good points Nitro. Not to mention over half of those who are married have affairs, ect, ect.

Yes Mijarra, our society is based on Judeo-Christain ideas that are two thosands years old. These people thought it was the end of the world when there was a eclipse, not to mention made sacrifices to god. So why are they not still making sacrfices to god? Because they know better through intellectual enlightinment promoted by the few. The point being many ideas of these beliefs are outdated an irrevelant, outdated. It is only because these people are brainwashed since their old enough to walk for two thousand years, that we still have these ideas predominating & dictating our society. That does not make it right, though there are some ideas that are universal in goodness. Most every major problenm in this world today invovles peoples clashing religous beliefs. Look no farther than the US supporting Isreal to see why there is such a problem as Muslim terrorisum. Sure theres the oil money factor to, but religion runs deeper.

"Just because most people believe something is right doesn't make it right." "Well thats wrong. Everyone beliving in something is EXACTLY what makes it right."- Mijarra

Hmm, I don't think so. Everyone thought the world was flat. Christainity locked up Galleo (spelling) for his invention the telescope, & the truth it revealed about our solar system & our earth revovling around the sun, not the other way around as was thought at the time. Christains in this country right now would rather supress teenagers using condoms in favor of the unrealistic notion of sexual abstinence, thus openig up millions of unwanted pregnancies, V.D. & aids. How about the people of Germany believing in Hitler? How about Russia & Stalin? No Mijarra, the majoriaty is not always right, they can be trajically wrong.

Ok, i'm finally going to weigh in on the subject. I personally see NO reason why gay and lesbian people cant marry. If they want to put themselves through the BS that is marriage, be my guest. And yes i am Christian, but i am also a firm believer in the idea of a "free" state.

Now that i've said that...i'm sick of people blaming Christianity for doing all the stupid things through out time. i.e Galileo. You know what the real reason behind all the "christian" problems though out history is? It the human factor, the fact that we do have free will...and the fact that almost everything that has influenced the church since almost the beginning is the fact that people get into a position of power and they want to keep it. YEs i am being simplistic there, but for the most part-the pursuit of power and keeping it has been the basis for all history.

Well, since i am "supposed to be working" i'll sign off now
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