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The Bible vs. Homosexuality
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Tyrannorabbit



Joined: 04 Oct 2000
Posts: 3985
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:46 pm    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by JesseR72:
As for religion starting wars, if you get down to it, I think you'll see that religion was more often an excuse for war rather than a reason.

This distinction might apply in a fistfight, but when it comes to mobilizing and motivating thousands of people into a killing army, it's the same thing.
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Mijarra



Joined: 28 Nov 2000
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Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:20 pm    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Jim McCormick:
[QB} I may be very wrong here about your implied meaning, but from this post & others it seems to me that you place way to much credit on Christanity for showing mankind the way to goodness. [/QB]

Not nescessarily. I mean, for myself, and millions of others in present history I credit "Christianity" for a lot of todays goodness, but other people today and others throughout history have found other paths to good also.

Looking at most Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and just about anything else, it seems we're all after the same thing pretty much. They find goodness too. I think God shows himself to different people in different ways according to how he feels they would best understand him. To me it's Christianity and Jesus, but to others it may be Allah, or others it may be Budda. Romans worshipped man Gods for different reasons, but Catholics have a zillion Saints for assorted purposes, so it's not too much of a stretch. To Native Americans God revealed himself through nature in their own set of beliefs.

I can't really justify it any other way other than saying it just makes sense to me, but I think we all have the same God, he just shows himself to us in different ways. All the religions in the world may very well be facets of the same diamond, if you get my meaning.

On thing that pi$$es me off about Bible beaters is that they are so sure they are right they refuse hear anyone elses point of view. They never stop to realize that other people feel just as strongly about their beliefs as the Bible folks do. Hindus feel they are right in their beliefs just as much as Baptists do. This is why I believe if I am to accept God as all powerful then I must admit I can never really know what the "truth" is. Maybe when I die.
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Mijarra



Joined: 28 Nov 2000
Posts: 1564
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:34 pm    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by JesseR72:
[QBIf you can find me a historical text that predates the oldest books of the Bible, I may buy into your notion that people were basically good before religion entered into the picture. God gave us commandments to abide by because people were generally NOT good by nature. We look at the 10 Commandements today and think many of them are obvious. Well, they were not obvious then, that's why they had to be wrtten down. Kinda like before 9/11 who woulda thought we should have to outlaw boxcutters on airplanes? The 10 Commandments don't appear in the Bible until the book of Exodus. In the Book of Genesis what do you have? Stories of Sodom and Gommorra, Tower of Babel and the world destroyed once save for Noah and his family because of the general evil of man's nature.
As for religion starting wars, if you get down to it, I think you'll see that religion was more often an excuse for war rather than a reason.[/QB]

If the Ten Commandments didn't exist until Moses hiked up the mountain in Exodus ( \m/ ) then what basis did God have to say people were being wicked? God was so pi$$ed at people for being bad that he flooded the earth and killed everyone except Noah and his family at one point. How were they bad? If there weren't any Commandmants to break, what were they doing wrong, and how did they know it was wrong? Seems to me they had no guidelines, so how did they know if something they were doing was wrong or bad?

Also, when Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden, according to the Catholic Church anyways, it meant mankind was condemned to hell. This is the point of baptism, to cleans the soul of original sin. So, in theory, if we are all condemned to hell from the get go, does that mean that everyone in the time of Noah went to hell anyway? If so, why would God even care if they were being bad?

Wait till I see the Reverand at work tomorrow, he's gonna get an earful. I'm not leaving the Chapel until I get answers! :-)
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Jim McCormick



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:27 am    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

"If you can find me a historical text that predates the oldest books of the Bible, I may buy into your notion that people were basically good before religion entered into the picture. God gave us commandments to abide by because people were generally NOT good by nature. We look at the 10 Commandements today and think many of them are obvious. Well, they were not obvious then, that's why they had to be wrtten down."- JesseR72

What do you base this on, personal experience, historical fact or faith? Do you think there was no history, laws, or books before the "Old Testement?" Do you think people stopped comitting war, murder, rape, ect. after the Ten Commandments? Do you think they've stopped all evil doing now? Do you think there was not kind good persons alive before the Commandments , that these persons didn't inspire others to be kind & good? What you are saying is that the Ten Commandments" is the ultimate law, & every other religion & person is not capable of good without these commandments. Nonsense! Theres billions of non-Christains, non-Jews, that abide by the general rule of goodnes. Do on to others as you would have them do on to you is not just a philosphy created by the Bible. To these people the Bible is as foriegn to them as their religion is to Christains & Jews. Again, nonsense.

I base this on knowing people & that people have a broad sense of weighing what acts are considered good or evil. The Indians didn't have any "Ten Commandments," but it can be said that the Christain done them sinfully wrong. Were all the Indians without any shread of goodness? The Ten Commandments also says thou shall not kill, but not who or what, if you look at it literally. Times may change, but people as a whole don't. How do you even know if the "Ten Commandments" ever existed as God's law (if there is such a thing as a Christain god) or by a man's hand. Don't you think it's a little contradicting to abide by a god's law if there is no promise of life after death in Moses time, which according to the Christains there was not, for Jesus had to die for our sins so we could enter the kindom of heaven. Yet the Christains still except Moses & "The Ten Commandments in their dogma. What motives would there be if no promise of eternal life? Or do you think Jesus walked the earth & died at the same time.

"Kinda like before 9/11 who woulda thought we should have to outlaw boxcutters on airplanes? The 10 Commandments don't appear in the Bible until the book of Exodus. In the Book of Genesis what do you have? Stories of Sodom and Gommorra, Tower of Babel and the world destroyed once save for Noah and his family because of the general evil of man's natureAs for religion starting wars, if you get down to it, I think you'll see that religion was more often an excuse for war rather than a reason.."- JesseR72

An excuse is a reason. All you have to do is look at the middle east to see where religion & war go hand in hand.

"Stories of Soddom & Gommorra." You hit the nail right on the head, the opertive word here is stories. There is no real proof of how people were at the time, other than our assumptions based on writings from different points of view at the time. They lived according to their phyiscal enviorment & primitive technology which in turn governed their behavoir, just as we do today. Pillars of salt, please. Another bedtime storie to scare childern, written by a man & his fear of sex.
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Tyrannorabbit



Joined: 04 Oct 2000
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 5:03 am    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Mijarra:
quote:
Originally posted by JosephC:
For instance, various techniques for dating indicate that a particular matter is billions of years old, but that doesn't discount the theory that God may have created it 6000 years ago to look like it was already a billion years old.


I like this. What to you think of maybe an opposite approach? For instance, God may have created the world over millions of years, but explained it the Bible in terms of thousands. Maybe because God realized that people of that time would have a hard time comprehending time on that vast of a scale. ??? If so, science and the Bible both jive.

The Bible was written in a time when people were fairly ignorant. The average 5th grader today probably has a better knowledge of most science and nature than adults did in the time of Moses or Christ. I think there has to be some accounting for that on the part of God. Maybe if the Bible were written today it would be a much more complexed book. Still, I think there are levels of it that apply to us today. We just have to look harder, because it is a fairly primitive text in many ways.[/QB]

There is no doubt that the average 5th grader today has a better knowledge of the natural world than most adults in the time of Moses or Christ.

But why would God dumb it down for us? I can understand if he'd dumb down the big cosmic things that humans in all their puny mortality couldn't possibly understand, but to dumb down concepts like the age of the universe...this only serves to date the religion he's trying to give creedence to, giving guys like me all that many more reasons to disregard it as superstitious nonsense.

Of course, being God, he'd know this. He's the one who endowed us with reason, intelligence, and inventiveness after all. Right?

This is why I can't even remotely buy the notion that somehow it's science that's wrong, consistently screwing the pooch about the (literally) universe of evidence as to the earth and the rest of the universe predating any biblical accounts of the beginning of time. Why would God plant a universe of evidence that flatly says one thing, then say another thing in a book he wants us to take as Truth, all the while giving us all the tools we need to uncover that evidence and find out for ourselves that the Truth he told us is, in fact, not the truth at all? That's [i]crazy[/i]! Does he seriously expect us to keep taking him seriously if he keeps behaving like this?

As for the woman who heals all of a sudden, or a skinny woman lifts up a car - which sound like apocryphal examples, but I'll bite - what does that have to do with a God?
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Jim McCormick



Joined: 09 Oct 2003
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Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:42 am    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Mijarra:
quote:
Originally posted by Jim McCormick:
[QB} I may be very wrong here about your implied meaning, but from this post & others it seems to me that you place way to much credit on Christanity for showing mankind the way to goodness.

Not nescessarily. I mean, for myself, and millions of others in present history I credit "Christianity" for a lot of todays goodness, but other people today and others throughout history have found other paths to good also.

Looking at most Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and just about anything else, it seems we're all after the same thing pretty much. They find goodness too. I think God shows himself to different people in different ways according to how he feels they would best understand him. To me it's Christianity and Jesus, but to others it may be Allah, or others it may be Budda. Romans worshipped man Gods for different reasons, but Catholics have a zillion Saints for assorted purposes, so it's not too much of a stretch. To Native Americans God revealed himself through nature in their own set of beliefs.

I can't really justify it any other way other than saying it just makes sense to me, but I think we all have the same God, he just shows himself to us in different ways. All the religions in the world may very well be facets of the same diamond, if you get my meaning.

On thing that pi$$es me off about Bible beaters is that they are so sure they are right they refuse hear anyone elses point of view. They never stop to realize that other people feel just as strongly about their beliefs as the Bible folks do. Hindus feel they are right in their beliefs just as much as Baptists do. This is why I believe if I am to accept God as all powerful then I must admit I can never really know what the "truth" is. Maybe when I die.[/QB]

I can accept that, live & let live. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] I'll stay nuetral by continuing my Agnostic ways. Maybe someday I'll find what I'm looking for, a answer untainted by man. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
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Jake



Joined: 02 Mar 1999
Posts: 4963

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:43 pm    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

In the old testament, God himself acknowledges other gods. He may not be the only one. Does this mean he is not all powerful?

There was a ruler in what is presently Iraq who had a code centuries before the ten commandments. The Egyptians had values. So did the Greeks. And there are cultures isolated from modern developments and industrial revolutions. These people are not necessarily wicked.

The old testament goes so far as to promote wars against foreigners and enslaving them. The jews do not seek converts like Christianity has over the centuries. Paul brought that concept to the religion when he said in Corinthians: "A jew who does not follow God's covenant is no longer one of my people, but a gentile may be as circumcised if he follows God's law." [Sorry I forgot the specific line]. It seems to me that the concept of loving one's neighbour refers to those of your own faith. Otherwise God would not promise Moses and Aaron great military victories against foreigners in Leviticus.

Failure to follow God's covenant will have foreiners conquering the Jewish people so that they are spread throughout the world and divided. This actually has happened. I guess the Jews must have become good again, because they have their own nation again.
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JosephC



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Location: Middleton, WI

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:38 am    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Jim McCormick:


It is a known medical fact that when a person is faced a critical situation such as a woman lifting a car of her child, the body becomes supercharged with a adrenalin inabling the muscle with superhuman strength.

Is that so? Is this a known medical fact, or a medical theory? Has this hypothesis ever been put through the scientific method and proven to be true statistically, resulting in it being fully documented in a scientific journal?

Science should be used to make inferences about that which is not known. But until a particular thing is proven or disproven by a sound, scientific method...then science should be left out of the equation when stating the fact of what may or may not be. Of course, what anyone may or may not believe is going to largely be based on that individual's opinion. The fact is many of the things that you assume to be true by science is in fact only theory, exactly the same as religion. And that is my whole arguement, I wouldn't put one ahead of the other or make an arguement that the two cannot co-exist.
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Jim McCormick



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 9:46 am    Post subject: The Bible vs. Homosexuality Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by JosephC:
quote:
Originally posted by Jim McCormick:


It is a known medical fact that when a person is faced a critical situation such as a woman lifting a car of her child, the body becomes supercharged with a adrenalin inabling the muscle with superhuman strength.

Is that so? Is this a known medical fact, or a medical theory? Has this hypothesis ever been put through the scientific method and proven to be true statistically, resulting in it being fully documented in a scientific journal?

Science should be used to make inferences about that which is not known. But until a particular thing is proven or disproven by a sound, scientific method...then science should be left out of the equation when stating the fact of what may or may not be. Of course, what anyone may or may not believe is going to largely be based on that individual's opinion. The fact is many of the things that you assume to be true by science is in fact only theory, exactly the same as religion. And that is my whole arguement, I wouldn't put one ahead of the other or make an arguement that the two cannot co-exist.

I have watched programs on the subject, & while it is hard to scientifically reproduce the exact same circumstances in a lab, medical science knows the working of the human body well enough to realize what happens, much more than the theory of divine intervention. Science has proven evidence of how the body functions through years of medicine & research…results. Can you make the same claim of your faith? The difference between your faith & science is that science’s theories stems from proven scientific fact…results, where as your faith has no basis other than we exist, which is strong proof of a god like being(s), but is not proof of your Christian God. It is true that the more questions science answers the more we realize there is to learn, but science does not rely on fairytales for its answers. You don’t have to be a social genius to understand the inbred human desire to know there is more to life than just death, no one wants to die & think that’s all there is. So we’ve invented Santa Clause for grownups, & through the centuries this belief has lived through our fear of death. It’s a hard reality, death. People as individuals have been indoctrinated & inducted into religion before they were even old enough to comprehend the idea. They are brainwashed since birth. People who were not religious who later converted were still surrounded by the idea, you can’t escape it, it surrounds humanity like a smothering blanket. For the most part those people are trading vices such as drugs, alcohol, sex, & loneliness, fear, self worthlessness, which lead to those vices, & then to the vice of religion. Nothing is more devout-fully closed minded than the mind of the newly converted. Nothing is as hypocritical as the majority of long standing Christians I’ve known that use their faith for further social standings in the community, but sin their sins in private. Many of these people really do not have any faith, they are just going through the motions instilled in their minds from their parents, grandparents, & down the line we go. What a profoundly sad sham it is. My mother’s side of the family is devout Mormon. My wife’s family is devout Catholic. These people don’t love their God for the most part, but fear him. They fear his wraith & being excluded from the sanctity of heaven when they die. They are not truly happy; it is all an illusion of happiness. I’m not saying non-religious people are any happier either, but at least they don’t delude themselves with rose painted pictures of death, nor do they impose their will on others as the religious do, they live & let live. So Joe you keep your religion, all the more power to you, but don’t try to rationalize it to me as living harmoniously with science, for that is an illusion, the two could not be farther apart. One is based in reality, the other faith.
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